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Post by david on Feb 24, 2006 1:42:27 GMT -5
You should get out more, bubba. There are thousands of churches all over where people have deep and long-lasting relationships with God and each other despite what you might see as weaknesses. Does everyone? No. Everyone doesn't exist except in the minds of people casting stones at the church.
Don't worry about, or grieve for those in the IC, we'll be just fine when rewards are passed out.
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Post by bill on Feb 25, 2006 23:40:45 GMT -5
While reading Barna's “Revolution,” I was reminded of people I've known and interacted with over the past decade or so, who took mission into their own hands. We also took Bible study into our own hands. This was long before “Emergent.”
However, with Barna's research in mind, and looking back from a higher elevation, I began to see what looks like natural “emergence.” The kind of emergence that occurs when an element has been taking on increasing energy and is just starting to jump to the next quantum level. It is order forming out of chaos. It is the beginnings of a phase change.
So, I think that Barna is both right and wrong. So-called Emergent church is reactionary. Of course it is, it's mostly X-Gen which is a realistic, reactionary generation. However, there is still real emergence, from the sociological perspective. What ever it is, it will emerge from chaos when a significant number of Barna's “Revolutionaries” find one another. I'm studying all I can on this now because I want to help light the fuse. I'm tired of church as usual.
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Post by loupoumakis on Mar 8, 2006 9:07:46 GMT -5
It seems to me that Barna (the Revolution movement) is throwing out the baby with the bath water. Yes, today's churches are in a poor state. They have fallen very far from where they were in Colonial times and even further from the early Church. But how will the revolutionaries resolve the kinds of issues that were ironed out by the early church councils (the deity of Christ, the Trinity, etc.)? Will they establish schools and seminaries to train those that will teach and lead their meetings (congregations?)? Or will they abandon serious study and just wing it on their own, each group (or individual) interpreting Scripture as he sees it? We have seen, and are actually experiencing, the kind of mayhem and confusion that derives from the latter approach.
No, to avoid complete disintegration, there must be a unifying factor among the revolutionary groups. And that can't be simply Scripture itself. We have hundreds of denominations today and would effectively have thousands or millions if we were to take that approach. There are two basic needs: a forum where serious students of Scripture can interact with each other and a link to the past, the work of the great theologians that preceded us. Without these, the movement must ultimately founder and disintegrate. It’s growing now as a reaction to the failure of our churches but, as all conservative movements, it cannot survive without a mechanism for change and the resolution of differences.
The church has provided, although very imperfectly, these basic needs. It has taken the West from paganism and barbarism to the level of civilization we enjoy today. So my question for George Barna or whoever would care to respond is how will the unifying factor be developed? Is the movement really just a reaction against the church that hopefully will effect some reform or is it to be something radically different?
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Post by Allen on Mar 8, 2006 11:21:53 GMT -5
Wow - this blogging is great fun.
loupoumakis - your post is exactly the same as your earlier post. Did you
a.) make a mistake in resending the same post and really meant to say something new?
b.) felt that your point was so strong that all you needed do is repeat it word for word.
If that is the case, I humbly bow out of the discussion. You win.
However, may I point out, that what you or I think is not nearly as important as what Father thinks - and He is still on His throne - and The Son did not endure the cross so that we could sit around and split hairs over doctrine.
How about if you and I both get into an attitude of humility and prayer and see what the Master has for us in the establishment of His Kingdom and His righteousness today? What do you say?
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Post by keith on Mar 8, 2006 21:41:14 GMT -5
What we do in church and call worship does not in and of itself constitute worship. I can worship God much more throughout the week than I can in the 20 minutes of the worship set of a 'worship service'. I enjoy it when it seems real. I don't enjoy it when it seems staged, or like entertainment.
And sometimes I take exception to words in a song that don't really seem to invoke what we are trying to do. When the words don’t match the mood or it’s just a song I find myself frustrated at what we are doing. In a worship set I am seeking to surrender myself to God, to prepare myself to hear His word so I can apply it rightly to my life.
But then again I do this myself regularly, several times a week before getting to church. So what really is it that I 'need' from church? I have mentors (seminary professors, pastors) who keep me grounded. So, what is it really that I need from church? I can be involved as David (in the book) is w/out the church. I have a personal ministry of evangelism, missions, and bible study, sometimes family, sometimes alone. I have believers whom I get together with to discuss the Word and have solid fellowship with. So, again I ask what do I ‘need’ from the church model that we have come to know.
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Post by pam on Mar 8, 2006 22:13:33 GMT -5
(My goal in this comment: to use as many “quotes” as I possibly can.)
I do think Barna is doing something about it by just publishing his findings in this book. I think it would be very helpful to people who think house churches are a cult and cyberchurches are just a way to get out of being part of a “real” church. It’s kind of a “bridge” Barna is able to make as a well-respected researcher to those who don’t understand the Spirit behind the different “forms” of the Church.
I also think the book would be very confirming to someone who was thinking of doing something “non-traditional” but wasn’t sure because of stereotypes in their “traditional” church.
I don’t know what he is “doing” about it in his every day life, but I appreciate that he was willing to look at changes in Church-ianity with an open mind and see the Spirit behind it.
It’s interesting that some have the misconception that doing a “non-traditional” form of Church is a cop-out. I am as challenged by house church as any church service, perhaps more so, or at least more regularly. To me, it’s too easy to sit in a service and tune it out. I need people on a weekly basis who are in my business, can cut through my “crap,” and see me for who I am with no “fooling.”
Also, I think it’s interesting that house church and other types of churches are becoming more “popular” or “trendy.” I think it can be a good thing, but I just hope we can all remain true to the Spirit that led us to have these church bodies and not just jump on a “post-modern bandwagon.”
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Post by greg on Mar 8, 2006 22:18:46 GMT -5
I have not read Barna’s new book (honestly I have not read any of Barna’s books) however, I do like the word revolutionary and the idea that these “disciples” are revolutionaries. This doesn’t take focus away from God in that if the life and message of Christ is seen as a revolutionary in our cultural setting, then it would be right to call anyone who is following after Christ and His message in this culture a revolutionary as well. I once read a book by Camus entitled “The Rebel.” I believe he makes the distinction between a revolutionary and a rebel. A revolutionary, by the nature of the word, infers that the person’s or persons’ work is that of renewal. The revolutionary is part of the transformation of something and then the return back to where they began, but changed. All of those “disciples” are part of the same revolutionary process. The “disciples” have looked at the state of the church and have determined that it is not right. Their actions are not to depart from the Church but are done in hopes that the process of revolution and protest will bring them back to where they began, but changed themselves and hopefully changing those around them. To follow Christ in the process of renewal makes us revolutionaries, participants in the revolution of Christ.
There is a great lesson to learn from Barna…more so than the words he has written. I believe one person responded with, “what is Barna doing about it? Its neat to talk about and analyze, but some of us are actually willing to remove the World and put on Christ and let everyone else discuss it.” A revolution needs many different types of people to do many different types of things. It needs the artist, the poet, the politician, the leader, the follower, the mechanic, the statistician, the analyzer, the dreamer, ect. Barna is the statistician and the writer. Through his writing, he has taken the risk and has joined the revolution. If we are to join the “disciples” we must not be fooled into thinking that the risk takers’ jobs (roles) will look the same. If we are to join the revolutionaries, we will need to find our unique way of contributing. For some it will be like the Jesus people of the 60’s and remove from the institutional church. For others it will be staying within the institution and taking up the work of the revolution there. For others it will be giving the revolution the books, songs and art that help solidify the identity of the revolutionaries. Without all of these contributions a revolution will just peter out. But one thing is for sure…the “movement” that Barna describes is a revolution and from what I have read in the scriptures it seems to be a movement of God. If we are to follow Christ in this movement we will become revolutionaries.
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Post by ee on Mar 9, 2006 21:39:31 GMT -5
lack of central core belief. i have seen people warp christian beliefs on a bible alone structure. without guidance, you have heresy and the destruction and warping of truth.
my only question, if the Holy Spirit truly guided those who read the Scriptures, then why are there so many versions of the truth? Thats why im against the decentralization of the Church. If decentralizes in order to get closer to God, and then falls... ex. 30,000 different sects of christianity. A sad state of affairs.
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Post by Helen McLaney on Jul 11, 2006 10:05:20 GMT -5
I like George Barna's message of worshiping God in truth and in Spirit and not in form! I would like to fellowship with the body of Christ where the worship is real and not rehearsed. God help us all to be real in Him and please Him!
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FBbondServant
New Member
Proverbs 27:17 As iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.
Posts: 17
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Post by FBbondServant on Aug 8, 2006 20:57:26 GMT -5
The SPLASH at release of the book has worn off. I hope our spirits have not weigned in the task at hand. The early buzz showed of promise to mix it up with the institutional church system. Of late it has been awful quiet in these pages dedicatesd to the BARNA group book "REVOLUTION".
If any wander through please REPLY or at least aknowledge you have been here. The last posts from me were in May 06 and they are still there today. Most others were in March 06. This is the newest thread written in presently.
YES I agree with worshiping HIM in spirit and in truth, VERY much! ! ! !
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Post by Allen on Aug 17, 2007 0:10:08 GMT -5
 I can only guess at what is going on. I have been on a journey with Yeshua since 1965 - and it has been getting more exciting every year since then. Here is what I think. God is on the move all over the globe. In many places what he is doing is below the radar of the media and other cultural buzz-generators. (I just made up that term because I cannot think of a word to say that I think that God is doing something and only those involved know very much at all about it.) I think that George Barna found out about it because - well - that's what he does. And - with Barna's book - God gave those who would "see" a peep-hole into what He is doing. Again - words escape me in discussing this. It is global. It is growing at an exponential rate. It is hidden from most people. Is it a revival? an awakening? If it is any of these - it is different than all those before it - with the possible exception of the 1st two centuries of Christ's original church - before "man" took over. I'll say only one thing about this present global move of God - it will never be stopped by man - because it is being led by no man - that is other than Adonai Hamasheagh Yeshua - Our Lord-God Christ Jesus. Is it a Revolution. Yes - and much more. Is He on the move here in the USA - yes. but here is my question - are we are greatly lagging behind most of the rest of the world - as it appears that we are - or is this mighty move of God more hidden here than elsewhere?
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Post by Allen on Aug 17, 2007 0:22:27 GMT -5
whatever you are trying to copy-paste onto this message board isn't working. why not just type in your comments like everyone else? canned messages are mostly ignored - but if you write from your heart perhaps someone will want to discuss. go ahead - give it a try.
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Post by larry on Oct 4, 2007 12:16:04 GMT -5
check out lifestreams.org and prayershack.freeservers.com
great info. also the church are people never a building.
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Post by J Prisner on Mar 15, 2008 7:05:01 GMT -5
I totally agree. The church "the people" not the building or denomination, "are to seek first, His Kingdom and His righteousness. As the Word says in, John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth: for such does the Father seek to be his worshipers.
Being a Christian for many years I can plainly that there is little difference in the (Church) today and the Worldly lifestyle.
It is up to every Christian to be different and to make a difference.  www.restorationcomputerservices.com/
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I can only guess at what is going on. I have been on a journey with Yeshua since 1965 - and it has been getting more exciting every year since then. Here is what I think. God is on the move all over the globe. In many places what he is doing is below the radar of the media and other cultural buzz-generators. (I just made up that term because I cannot think of a word to say that I think that God is doing something and only those involved know very much at all about it.) I think that George Barna found out about it because - well - that's what he does. And - with Barna's book - God gave those who would "see" a peep-hole into what He is doing. Again - words escape me in discussing this. It is global. It is growing at an exponential rate. It is hidden from most people. Is it a revival? an awakening? If it is any of these - it is different than all those before it - with the possible exception of the 1st two centuries of Christ's original church - before "man" took over. I'll say only one thing about this present global move of God - it will never be stopped by man - because it is being led by no man - that is other than Adonai Hamasheagh Yeshua - Our Lord-God Christ Jesus. Is it a Revolution. Yes - and much more. Is He on the move here in the USA - yes. but here is my question - are we are greatly lagging behind most of the rest of the world - as it appears that we are - or is this mighty move of God more hidden here than elsewhere? 