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Post by karen sawyer on Feb 1, 2006 15:17:49 GMT -5
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Post by James Ryle on Feb 1, 2006 18:08:03 GMT -5
AN OPEN LETTER TO J. LEE GRADY An Open Letter to J. Lee Grady, Editor of Charisma From James Ryle, President of TruthWorks Ministries January 19, 2006 Dear Mr Grady, Abraham Lincoln said, “It’s better to keep your mouth shut and have everyone think you’re a fool; than to open it and remove all doubt.” Your recent editorial regarding “George Barna’s Dangerous Proposal” has proved the point. Your denunciation of what you call Barna’s “flawed proposal” is itself flawed at numerous points. First, you accuse Barna of “cooking the numbers” – but where’s your proof, sir. There is none, for Barna did no such thing. Indeed, he would never do such a thing. Furthermore, you are a wordsmith, Mr. Grady; a man who understands the power of speech; a man who, in your own by-line, is an “award-winning journalist” -- and that is why I find your phrasing, “cooking the numbers”, to be deliberately offensive. This is your own opinion, unsupported by any fact, and by publishing it you thereby told your readers that George Barna is a liar. As a professing Christian you ought to be ashamed of yourself. Second, you accuse Barna of “injecting his own bias into this odd experiment.” Again, where is your proof? There is none; for Barna did no such thing. He honestly researched the data, and faithfully reported his findings in the single hope of being an encouragement to the multitudes who have become increasingly discouraged with the American church in general. The truth is that you are the one who has injected your own bias into Barna’s findings, and thus penned your disgraceful response. And in so doing have only served to prove the very point of Barna’s book – multitudes of born-again, Bible-believing, Godfearing, Christ-following men and women are sick and tired of this type of religious crap. And, yes, I am one of them. Mr. Grady, you are (perhaps were is the better choice here) a respected voice in a significant portion of the Body of Christ. You could have, and you should have used your position and your influence to engage in a wholesome and productive dialogue concerning the very sobering findings of Barna’s research. Instead, you reacted like a school boy on the playground – resorting to tattle-telling and name-calling. You attack a man’s character and integrity, and label him as a “mad scientist.” I can only imagine how delighted you were when that went to print without being cut by the editor. Oh, wait a minute, you are the editor. As a professing Christian you ought to know better; and you ought to be ashamed of yourself. Third, you postulate that “Barna’s theory is that large numbers of American Christians are disillusioned with the church and have quit the Sunday morning routine.” This is not a theory, Mr. Grady – it’s a fact. And your unwillingness to face it, and deal with it in a responsible, intelligent, and adult manner serves only to insure that even more will leave. If you represent the best we have to offer, if your handling of this issue is the best that we can do, then we are far worse off than even Barna imagines. Fourth, you write, “If you still go to church, Barna makes you to feel like a weirdo.” And here is where you blow your cover, Mr. Grady. Barna cannot make anybody feel anything. If that’s the way you feel, perhaps the best course of action you could have taken would’ve been to get counsel from your pastor – not write an editorial, pontificating your views while surreptitiously slamming a brother. As a professing Christian you ought to know better; and you ought to be ashamed of yourself. Fifth, in typical hysteria often associated with irrational and religious die-hards, you write, “To follow [Barna’s] defective thesis to its logical conclusion would require us to fire all pastors, close all seminaries and Bible colleges, padlock our sanctuaries and send everybody home to be discipled by somebody on the Internet or at a ‘spontaneous’ worship concert.” Do you really think we are all that stupid? Perhaps the more pertinent question would be, are you that stupid? And finally, you self-righteously conclude, “this flawed proposal needs to be recalled before it causes some serious damage.” The damage, my high-minded friend, is not done by Barna’s findings; but rather by leaders such as yourself who refuse to face the facts and work toward a positive solution to the growing crisis that faces many, many churches in today’s world – churches who are dying, or dead; and as such are bringing increasing dishonor to the name of Christ. Mr. Grady, you are supposed to be a man of wisdom, a giant in the faith, a spokesman for truth – and this is the best you can come up with? If anything should be recalled, it is your impetuous editorial. Furthermore, you owe George Barna an open apology. And, if you really want to do something that would make a world of difference - - find a way to use your resources and influence toward affirming, encouraging, and edifying the millions of believers who, for conscience sake, no longer find a home in so many of the local churches peppered throughout our Nation. Now that would be truly revolutionary! James Ryle, TruthWorks Ministries
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Post by Joel on Feb 2, 2006 9:56:44 GMT -5
I haven't read Barna's book, but reading your own recapitulation of and alarmist reaction to it, I tend to think he's on the right track. I like my local congregation's Sunday morning service, but it's not essentially "Church." Though structure can be helpful and the traditional schedule and ritual (and I'm not part of a liturgical church--not that there's anything wrong with that--but we charismatics tend to be a bit delusional about how those other guys are "ritualistic" and somehow we're not) are ok, they certainly can become an idol.
I don't hear Barna rejecting authority or, least of all, our need to gather together. If anything, I hear him imploring us to gather together more often and more organically--to be a part of each other's lives and not just part of a Sunday morning club. Worship and fellowship ought to be integral, daily, varied. It ought to be a lifestyle, not an appointment.
Traditionalism is fine, but let's not idealize and idolize the forms with which we happen to be familiar.
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Not the book I read
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Post by Not the book I read on Feb 2, 2006 9:59:00 GMT -5
Joel, I read it after reading what Christianity Today said and it's like these people are attacking a totally different book. I agree with you and unfortunately, in my skepticism I see people alarmed about potentially losing the empires they've built in the name of Jesus.
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Post by caleb on Feb 2, 2006 10:00:35 GMT -5
I have to disagree with Lee Grady's article. I think the biggest threat to Christianity right now is the threat that many of the kingdoms that have been built within the kingdom is at risk of falling.
What is wrong with believers taking on their place and ministering to people right where they are? I have been heading up a 'house church for the past year, after being a pastor/minister/deacon in a medium sized church. I can tell you that what I have found is that the majority of Christians are herded to a place where there is very little community (just because 500 people gather in a building a read the screen and sing at the same time, doesn't mean it's worship or community). In the past year, i have seen people mature faster and learn to hear God for themselves and appreciate more their own relationship with the Lord.
The tendency is for us to seek solace in a nice building, organization or 'anointed man of God' so we can be absolved from taking any real responsibility for ourselves.
I would rather see a person express the Kingdom in my living room rather than around the 'altar' of the city's largest Worship Center. My kids would probably gain more from it.
Think about it Lee, we raise millions of dollars to build buildings that are used for 12 total hours 7% of the time and pay salaries to ministers to tell us what God is saying to us. I have no problem with seminaries, and churches and cathedrals in and of themselves, but the traditions we developed over the years have done very little to empower the church to effect society.
Just so that I am not misunderstood, I don't believe in loose unaccountable leadership and helter-skelter, anything goes Christianity. However, if we dont take a real hard look at what we are dealing with and realize that a real change needs to occur, we will be going down with the Titanic using the same reasoning you defend in your article.
God Bless.
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Post by RON on Feb 2, 2006 10:01:45 GMT -5
J Lee, Much love an appreciation for your writtings. Sorry, but you have sure missed on this one.
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Post by Pastor Jim on Feb 2, 2006 10:05:04 GMT -5
One day, under the guidance of G-d the Holy Spirit those who follow Barna's prescription will learn the meaning of pastor-teacher, evangelist, and other doctrinal authority placed in the body of Christ which we call the church.
Complaining about the organized church; encouraging church splits; playing at church can be great fun. Going to and participating in the local church can be a greater blessing.
Some might feel real good about bringing church authority into question.
Coffee, donuts, and a slap on the back or a round of golf may be the view and activity of some believer's on Sunday or any day, and fine with that. However, I do not see a mass exodus from the Sunday assembly in spite of the many who have become active in the mega churches and are comfortable with that.
My family (wife and three children) fellowship in a small community with the assembly we worship at being the only one with a vacation Bible school; active teaching sunday school; and of course Sunday evening service, where I am privileged from time to time to communicate Bible doctrine - something the church has need of. My family has been in fellowship with and encouraged others to attend the local church for 30 years - without regret.
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Post by lizie on Feb 2, 2006 10:07:11 GMT -5
On Lee Grady’s comment about “Revolution”: I have been faithfully attending this trend for the last year or so. However, our family is so hungry for the teaching of the Word. We need the pastors in our churches for discipleship, rising up others for the ministry. Coffee houses, home fellowship is great safe friendships for families. But we need the Word form pastors that apply themselves to the study and rightly dividing the Word under the unction of the Holy Spirit.
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Post by new on Feb 2, 2006 10:08:20 GMT -5
You know what is really scary? Some of the best pastors I have ever met did not even know they were pastoring. They never preached from behind a pulpit, never headed a congregation, never went to bible school or were put on a church payroll. Still they were and still are some of the greatest pastors ever. Go figure?
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Post by Randall on Feb 2, 2006 10:10:02 GMT -5
Lee, you can bash Barna all you want, but he's absolutely right.
The traditional, program-driven, facilities-based church is dying, and while it may not seem like death is imminent when you look at the Lakewoods (Osteen) of our country, it will accellerate toward the end and surprise even those of us who anticipate it.
My own independent ministry to churches will most probably go under, as will Strang communications because of a lack of tithe monies to pay for such things as discipleship books and magazines. But that's ok with me. I have skills and I will work in the marketplace and get along fine.
A new, organically-grown church will emerge, similar to what is going on in China. You will see cell-based house churches (What Larry Kreider terms "microchurches" in his book, published by DOVE) everywhere, pastored by unpaid men and women of God whose lives are filled with relationships with unbelievers and relevancy.
Lee, embrace the certainty of our future as Christians in this time of transition. It will not only go easier for you, but we'll end up with an unstoppable grassroots movement that will be far more powerful than what we have now.
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Post by Trasamar on Feb 2, 2006 10:12:22 GMT -5
Brother Grady, I must admit that I am somewhat surprised at your response to this book. Have you actually read it completely?
Barna does not necesarily advocate leaving traditional church. He simply is pointing to a growing trend of believers, myself included, who have resolved that the traditional church setting does not meet every need.
Indeed, the quote that you used, “The Bible neither describes nor promotes the local church as we know it today,” is accurate.
Is what we call the "Church" today the same as the New Testament description of the "Church?" Somehow it seems lacking. Not just here in the States, but also what we have exported throughout the world. There are so many differences, it would be hard to describe.
The Book of Acts portrays a vibrant growing Body of Believers who were radically changing their world to the point that it was even said of them that they had, "Turned the world upside down!"
For the most part on any given Sunday in any given local church, there is a core group of the congregation who are actively involved, "doing" some type of service.
However, the majority of the people, sit and observe as the "paid professionals" preach, or sing. Oh yes, there is some involvement from the congregation during corporate worship/singing, and some may even step out of the boat to prophesy or give a tongue, but for the most part, the congregation OBSERVES.
Our traditional interpretation of Hebrews 10:25 has come to mean that we can only fulfill the "assembling" of believers at 10:00 AM on a Sunday morning (Oh, and Sunday and Wednesday night). Funny, but I thought that Jesus said "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." That can take place anytime, and anywhere.
For the most part our ministry philosophy has been "Come ye out of all the commnity and gather into a building called the church, and hear a nice sermon [which may or may not have anything to do with the Gospel]"
Status quo Christianity is obviously not having a major effect on our society as a whole.
It is high thime that the CHURCH (the Body of Christ) steps out of the four walls of the church building and out into the world that Jesus died for. How will they hear without a preacher?
I think that Barna has hit on something that many believers, who love God with all their hearts, have felt but never were able to express.
God is actively involved in the earth today, even outside the four walls of a church building. _________________ Jesus + Nothing = Everything
"God had Christ, who was sinless, take our sin so that we might receive God’s approval through him." 2 Cor. 5:21 GWV
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Post by Diane on Feb 2, 2006 10:15:08 GMT -5
I think that before we blast Grady, the book needs to be read. He might not have fully identified all of the issues that he had with the book, just reacted to some of the greater ones. This book isn't getting good press in a lot of areas because of it's bad theology. Check out Keith Drury's take on it (a little more moderate type of professor from Indiana Wesleyan). He pretty much calls the book 'heresy'! And that's not what I expected from him at all! www.drurywriting.com/keith/revolution.barna.htm
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Post by jgrubbs on Feb 2, 2006 10:17:05 GMT -5
Tim Stafford, a CT senior writer, wrote in Christianity Today, "A living, breathing congregation is the only place to live in a healthy relationship to God. That is because it is the only place on earth where Jesus has chosen to dwell. How can you enjoy the benefits of Christ if you detach yourself from the living Christ?"
I have yet to find the Scripture that Mr. Stafford is using to support his statement that Christ only dwells witin the congregation of an institutional church. My Bible tells me that Jesus has chosen to dwell in the heart of every Christian who repents of their sin and puts their faith in Him for their salvation. The Body of Christ is made up of believers from every denomination, including those who the Lord has lead to worship, study and fellowship outside of the institutional church in their homes as the early New Testement Christians did.
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Post by tsktsk on Feb 2, 2006 10:20:35 GMT -5
What's disturbing to me is that Barna's critics are quick to call him a heretic and his ideas proposterous. I don't think he's off the mark, because in truth we're all to practice our Christianity at the leading of the Holy Spirit as God wills and not by some human mandated notion of what a Christian looks like, talks like, smells like, etc. The Message is the same, but the messenger and the venue is constantly changing forms. Why is it absurd to go back to what worked and what was most effective? The first century church were "go ye there" saints and look at the impact their obedience had on the world and our faith. I love that Barna is thinking out of the box and inspiring others to do the same. He's not calling people to rebel against God or authority, as someone stated earlier, he is merely suggesting that the new movement is really an old movement in Christ. You know I've seen tatooed, bandana wearing bikers sharing the Gospel, and I've seen dreadlocked young men carrying their bibles down the street and praising the Lord in church. I've seen people hold church on the city bus. This church Barna speaks of is prophetic in the sense that it's a church that meets people where they are and is the beginning of an underground church movement. In the USA we like to blow off the possibilities of having our religious freedom taken away when it's a reality of our God's Word, the day is coming and someone or somebody has to lead the way.
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Post by kreseniya on Feb 2, 2006 10:22:39 GMT -5
Oh dear! As an aging baby-boomer who was saved in the midst of the Jesus People movement, this all has a very familiar ring. Back then, it was the para-church organizations (InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, Navigators, Campus Crusade) that were considered a threat to traditional organized church. Just give the Starbucks meeting Christians time to have kids of their own and the paradigm will change again.
The big question is "Why?" Why are people leaving (or never entering) traditional churches. The truth is, some churches are indeed dead. Their members, answering the haunting desire for something deeper, will leave searching for true fellowship. However, others simply cannot abide any authority and leave out of rebellion. All of us in house churches or living traditional churches (or small churches meeting in re-modeled machine shops) need to pray for revival in the whole Christian body.
As a DJ at a Christian radio station in a small midwestern town, I frequently hear from people who consider our station to be their church home. All of our staff encourage such callers to get involved in fellowship. The location and time are secondary. (My church meets on Friday evenings) But fellowship and something much deeper than fellowship, community, are necessary for Christian growth.
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Post by Terri on Feb 2, 2006 10:25:31 GMT -5
To get a better sense of this movement of God to return to N.T. values, you might want to read the CBN report: Worshiping Outside the Traditional Church Walls By Paul Strand www.cbn.com/cbnnews/news/060106a.asp The report interviews George Barna himself, Jim Ryle (formerly of the Promise Keepers) amongst others. I was first made aware of this report from Paul Strand himself, who is a homechurcher. Yes, what has "flown under the radar" as Barna indicates, are quite a many other ministries -- the "open church" types, as Jim Rutz said, the "simple church" as Tony Dale calls it, and many others who are operating in a different. N.T. way. As Barna says, these ministries and ministers (and yes there are ministers) are getting little credit though they are making a huge impact to the positive on many people's lives. There are full-time ministers today who operate by faith as Paul did. Part-time or "full"-time--either way--No ministry is a "job" in the worldly sense, because it is way more important then a "job" could ever be. Barna is not starting anything at all. For instance, I was called into ministry in regards to the "revolution" over 9 years ago. Good to see it is called what God told many of us it would be called, eventually. I am not the only one by any means. As should be clear by the CBN report, this has been going on inspired by God well before Barna's book. Like Barna, I expect critics to misrepresent and repudiate. In the mean time, please study the scriptures for yourselves and do not easily dismiss whatever ministry God would have you involved in, wherever it is, and I mean that. New wine does not go well into hardened wine skins, but the Church will survive. God bless all who serve the Lord with a pure heart and an open, yet informed, mind
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Post by Jackson on Feb 2, 2006 18:29:05 GMT -5
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Post by Mike Steele on Feb 3, 2006 13:16:54 GMT -5
I am very thankful and grateful to George Barna for his book. George has been giving insight into the Body for many years. In this season, many of those who were the recipients of his writings over the years are still choosing not to listen.
Many folks have had strong opinions about the revelations coming forth in the book. Many have pre judged and determined George’s ecclesiology and theology from a book written to inform and bring to light to “emerging Holy Spirit works” now being birthed.
I would hope that men and women of good will would not be moved to judge without knowledge or respond out of fear or ignorance. I am sure that men and women of good will would contact George to understand what is going on. I am sure that men and women of good will would not dismiss an honorable and respected man without a conversation to bring clarity. They would remember the time honored words, “let us reason together”. I believe some folks may need to repent of their harsh attacks in a public forum rather than to have met personally and with respect. The book of Galatians may well be a great roadmap in this season for the Body of Christ in the United States.
In this season we don’t have time for Christians to shoot Christians. The harvest is ripe and deserves all our attention. For years, people have cringed at many of the things being birthed by the Spirit. The Charismatic movement was one of those things, among many, that had people up in arms and accusing brothers and sisters of heresy. Now it is mainstream. There does not have to be an attack every time people begin to move by the leading of the Holy Spirit. Let’s break the judgmental spirit that exists in the western church. Again Galatians says, “ For the whole law can be summed up in this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." But if instead of showing love among yourselves you are always biting and devouring one another, watch out! Beware of destroying one another.
I trust we will remember that our war is not against flesh and blood. It would be nice to see the Body of Christ respond to the Lord’s movement without accusing and defaming. There are millions of people in this country wanting to connect with God but not able to find him in the settings some may be familiar with.
What will the Church reveal to these seekers about the love and compassion of Christ when we keep shooting our own? We do not need to violate men and women of faith to protect Christianity. The Almighty God of the Universe is quite capable of keeping things in line.
Thousands of Christ filled gatherings have been planted around this nation in the last 3-5 years by folks looking to fulfill Matthew 22:37-38 and Matthew 28:18-20.
Some of these gatherings are reaching into lost pockets of people who would never darken the door of a building. (The building is not the Church. We are!)
One more from Galatians, “ But when the Holy Spirit controls our lives, he will produce this kind of fruit in us: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Here there is no conflict with the law.
Why not rejoice at what God is doing and remember our friend Gamaliel. He knew God was able to keep things in order.
Better yet, why not partner with each other and see what God might release in every gathering of the faithful?
People are looking for an intimate relationship with God and a spiritual family to live it out among. They are going to be looking to those who walk with Christ to show them the Way. I trust they will see it in those who are called by His Name.
Barna is calling the Church to recognize the season we are living in. He has been doing that for two decades or more. Let’s come alongside one another for the sake of His Kingdom.
Thanks George!
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Post by trieer on Feb 4, 2006 23:47:17 GMT -5
While I hardly qualify as "spiritually mature," this post describes almost exactly what I am going through. I have attended evangelical churches for over 20 years since my "conversion" experience. But I am increasingly disillusioned with church and it's focus on attendance, buildings and cash. It seems that many very good people in my church are not really interested in knowing the biblical Jesus, but only the republican Jesus. My theology is going through extensive revisioning and I find myself increasingly attracted to Catholic reconcilliation. And that in itself disqualifies me from any position of leadership in most evangelical churches. So, while this post asks a VERY pertinent question, what I want are thoughts on direction. Is it okay to settle for different? Is it okay to check out of the local church? What do we do about the wall?
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Post by jharris on Feb 7, 2006 8:06:14 GMT -5
You need to distinguish between what people are saying "local" church and "institutional" church. The theologians themselves are bristling because they mean "institutional" but say "local". When believers gather the church is gathered. As it grows there is a need for order and fulfilling of roles based on gifts etc... but that can take on many forms and if it is with a group of catholic reconcilers, then so be it...keep in mind the characteristics...this is what differentiates a club from the church.
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Post by John Burton on Feb 7, 2006 10:25:16 GMT -5
As someone who has pastored a church, I understand the desire to promote the organization, but, the reality is this- the local church is a great, God ordained EXTRAbiblical method of ministry. It's not UNbiblical by any means... it's done the world well. But, it very well may be showing its weaknesses. The CITY church, however, is very biblical. Submission to authorities in the city church is critical. Unity is a must. Boldness, passion, mission and world evangelism will most efficiently take place as we realize the church is in the city. I call our house of prayer 'the prayer and worship department of the city church'. We don't do it all... we're just a department. Others in the city will step up into their roles, people will attend many different functions at many different places. They will go to one place to receive teaching, another to step out into evangelism, etc. Uh oh- where will they give their tithes? What about the money? I think God is very good at supplying... leaders should repent and stop worrying about where the money will go.
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Post by Gerald T Mounce on Feb 7, 2006 12:18:26 GMT -5
I agree with Mr. Ryle's open letter to J. Lee Grady. I currently have a subscription to Chrisma magazine and have enjoyed Mr. Grady's column up to now. Is this religion speaking to protect Chrisma's power base of churches, pastors, and money? George Barna is not the only one with this message. Arthur Burk with Plumbline Ministries is sharing some very similar idea's. Its time the church become's The Church, the one that Jesus Christ is the head promoting The Kingdom of God and not the kingdom of man.
Viva La Revlouticion,
Gerald T. Mounce
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Post by 4yeshuahamasheagh on Feb 7, 2006 15:47:58 GMT -5
Whew! A lot's been said already. What can I add? I don't recall anyone commenting on Grady's comparrison to the Church in the Third World. He said this wouldn't fly there. I think Grady ought to read "Mega Shift" by James Rutz (after he reads Revolution from cover to cover - prayerfully - with an intention to learn rather than criticize) After reading Mega Shift I was thinking - it looks like the good ol' USA is missing out on something really exciting in God's economy. Or is it? If only someone like George Barna would do some research andwrite a book about what God is doing in the USA. Well, he has - and it is indeed exciting. I found myself wishing I were one of James Rutz's 707 million "core apostolics" - but then found that I already was one of George Barna's Revolutionairies - have been since the 1960's. I do recommend the book and have bought several copies for others.
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Post by Michelle Borquez on Feb 9, 2006 19:01:44 GMT -5
Lee, I am saddened by the way you presented George Barna in the article you wrote for Charisma Online. Knowing George personally, and also knowing the message on his heart, it was just disappointing to say the least; the way you have taken him completely misconstrued his material. In fact, I personally know he is working with pastors to help build their churches, and for your information this includes a few pastors from the largest churches in North America. What I want to know is why? Did you call George on the phone and ask him personally if he had a vendetta against the church. Maybe you should check out the most recent article in Shine. I asked him those questions specifically and was pleasantly surprised to find that his mission was not at all to tear down the efforts of the local church, but to inspire those within the church to go out and be the church. Which the way my bible reads means to be Christ to the world, to be His hands, his feet, and to fulfill His purpose on this earth. I personally think we all need someone to challenge us to do exactly that. If more of us were being the church we certainly would see the revival we all so desperately long for within the four walls of what we call “church”. Just for the record I am a “church” member and love the local church, but I am in a body where believers are “being the church” and therefore not offended by the message George so carefully communicated. Go back and read the book again, take some time to interview George himself, and then hopefully another article from you will surface that is more favorable.
From one editor to another I would suggest you do your homework before blasting someone the way you so easily have. Lee, I think this fire in your bones is personal and it comes across as personal in your article. What happened to objective journalism and getting to the truth and the source of one’s message. Whether you agree with George or not, I see nothing but disrespect for a man who has certainly earned his respect within the Christian arena.
Many blessings,
Michelle Borquez President of Christian Women in Media and Arts
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Post by tom on Feb 11, 2006 1:08:31 GMT -5
It is interesting that Barna, the Guru of how to grow a church, make a healthy church, increase the giving in the church, now has decided to condemn what he helped to build! His numbers are ridiculous, and his definition of what Christians are is absurd. Then, after he calls anyone and everyone a Christian just because they might have sat in a pew at one time in their life, he now decides to say they are dead and the passionate Christ followers should leave them! The real sadness is that many pastors actually read his material, as if there is anything good in there to spend time reading. That would be a real sad use of stewardship. Perhaps George Barna does love the Lord, but he is a perfect example as to why the church needs theologians and not marketers leading the church.
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FBbondServant
New Member
Proverbs 27:17 As iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.
Posts: 17
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Post by FBbondServant on Feb 12, 2006 13:48:30 GMT -5
How main line oganized views can interpet these as assalts on their structure then decide that this MUST be a direct heresy to the Biblical Faith is most astounding. The following is an exerpt from the actual article at Charisma Online; "....the really relevant Christians who care about Jesus and love people will say adios to their pastors and write Ichabod on the doors of ecclesiastical buildings. He envisions a "spiritual awakening" in which people are drawn away from the church, not drawn toward it." The last time I checked and EVERY time I have asked the Holy Spirit to guide me in to all truth and help me understand HIS workings in my life NONE of these assumtions were even considered nor propogated. I am still waiting for my copy of the actual book so I can allow the Holy Spirit to let me see what "Chasisma" asserts for myself. I will be cautious due to this and maintain a teachable spirit in order to defend from any and all false doctrine that exists. The next assertion and assumption that moved me and dissappointed was this following statement; "Such interactions [as described in Hebrews 10:25] could be in a worship service or at Starbucks; it might be satisfied through a Sunday school class or at a dinner in a fellow believer’s home." In other words, church is up for grabs. Define it how you wish, as long as you don’t define it the traditional way." No evidence is offered here that the "traditional way" is the only or Godly way? ? I have never read such a stir and followed to get the book to see for myself. I have 3 copies on order as it seems likely that there are several that are in I disagreeociation that can be ministered to by having the freedom to serve and function in HIS kingdom. Hopefully I do not see this view spoken of by Chasisma projected in the actual book. If a freedom to serve is eluded to or set as a likely outcome there will be great joy in my spirit. In either case this could amount to an all out assalt on Hirearchy and Positional Stigmatism more than on Christs true CHURCH. The next expert of the Charisma article seems consistant with a gaurding of what Institutional teachings have instructed us more than actual truth.; "...what Barna wants to do is reinvent the church without its biblical structure and New Testament order" I repent right now publically if I am projecting this view and ask all my brethern to forgive me as I seek to do the Biblical mandate of "Reasoning together" that "brethern in unity may dwell". Remember a house devided against itself cannot stand...OUCH to both sides of this equation! Rend our hearts unto YOUR work Father and help us in this pursuit of YOUR kingdom. Finally The following statement at the Charisma article; "...The message of Revolution is not for Christians in the Third World, and it is not for us." We can agree that our view here in America is certainly NOT indicative of all of Christs CHURCH. We can whole heartedly give in to this assertion that this book may not be for the CHURCH at large. However rejecting the truth simply besause the title may have needed to be "A Church Revolution" or something a little less wide spread in implecations is not acceptable to us as believers. To toss the whole concept and loose the truth in it simply because we do not WANT it to be true may be a larger heresy than some are calling this issue. The whole of apolojetics in general may have to be reassessed. C-Mon Church lets get after it and show the world a Christlike unity and LOVE that refuses to return evil with evil. In Fact a recent sermon preached in my hearing did say and affirm what the Holy Spirit of God teaches us thru the Scriptures. "Overcome evil with good" so let us bless our brethern as they also testify of Christ and hold to the simplicity of the gospel os Christ. The issue is not as complicated as we humans are making it in to. There has been a blessing in my life in the last 1 1/2 years as examining where foundations of our faith came from and whether it is a simple desire of my heart or is it really a desire of Gods heart and therefore a mandate on me??? Me thinks HE will define that and allow the space to do HIS work as HE BUILDS HIS CHURCH.
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Post by will on Feb 20, 2006 23:59:34 GMT -5
I suspect Barna's observation is correct.
I frankly cannot envision what the church will look like, but I think it may bear little resemblence to what it is now.
I don't believe this is a bad thing -- our organizations may not survive, but I'm absolutely convinced the "church" (as in the body of Christ) will thrive.
From my point of view, I would stress proceeding with some caution -- I think the "reformers" were right -- "the Church reformed and always reforming according to the Word of God."
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Post by Brent on Feb 21, 2006 0:43:02 GMT -5
The IC/Denominational Leaders are lashing out at the messenger because they refuse to deal with the reality.
Isn't interesting that most of what is going on in China, India and Africa follows the house church pattern, not the IC pattern. Seems like Mr. Grady needs to rethink his views when looking to the mission field.
My brother-in-law was recently told by his pastor, along with the rest of the congregation of his Northwest Arkansas Megachurch, that the only giving that counted towards a tithe was giving that was given to the local church budget. All other giving didn't count. Isn't interesting that this same pastor is trying to raise $38,000,000 to build a second campus for his megachurch. Isn't interesting that this pastor is driven by a security detail between both campuses so he can preach in both locations on the same Sunday morning.
A wise brother in Christ once told me that men, money and organization can do lots of impressive things, but can they be sure it was of God?
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Post by tb on Feb 21, 2006 0:46:50 GMT -5
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Post by daniel on Feb 21, 2006 22:40:51 GMT -5
Barna is not some fly-by-night wacko who flippently discharges conclusions that carry no meaning. Were that so, I doubt he would have ever achieved the level of notoraity he has thus far enjoyed. And I can't help but wonder what some thought and said about him "back in the day" when he suggested that we (the church) take a closer look at how we are relaying the salvation message to younger generations...
As I said on another blog - I honestly think that one of the main reasons Barna will receive flack for this book is because he is hitting most who read this book (church pastors and leaders) right where it hurts the most - their WALLET! What's going to happen to church budgets when churches shrink in size? This is why I think Barna will be lambasted for sharing what he feels is an accurate trend taking place today.
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